Fuat Dündar: 1915 was part of a "systematic ethnic engineering" project
04-16-2007
Armenian Genocide Forum
by Talin Suciyan
ISTANBUL - Speaking in Istanbul in March, historian Fuat Dündar argued that the Armenian "deportations" of 1915 were part of a "systematic ethnic engineering" project undertaken by the Ottoman government, which was controlled by the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) at the time.
Mr. Dündar, who received his Ph.D. from the prestigious École des Hautes Études en Sciences Sociales (EHESS) in Paris, has studied the cipher telegrams written by members of the CUP government and tracked the ethnic and demographic changes in Anatolia between 1913 and 1918. For his master's degree, he had focused mainly on the displacement of Muslim populations, publishing a book titled Ittihat ve Terakki'nin Müslümanlari Iskan Politikasi (The CUP's settlement policy for Muslims). He is also the author of Türkiye Nüfus Sayimlarinda Azinliklar (Minorities in Turkey's censuses).
At the "Armenian conference" held in 2005 at Istanbul's Bilgi University, Mr. Dündar presented some of his findings. "Deportation is not a holistic and premeditated project," he concluded at the time. But now, speaking before a group of about 60 activists, academics, and journalist at Tarih ve Toplum Bilimleri Enstitusu (History and Social Sciences Institute), Mr. Dündar declares, "deportation is a conscious decision, the consequences of which could have been known in advance."
What follows is a conversation between this correspondent and Fuat Dündar, which also appeared in Turkish in Agos.
Q: You wrote your Ph.D. thesis on settlement policies during the CUP period between 1913 and 1918. Are you talking about a systematic settling policy covering all those who were not ethnic Turks?
F. Dündar: Actually Turks were also resettled in order to obtain a predominance or majority of Turkish identity. We can say that ethnic engineering was conducted. The Turks' duty was to turkify. In the framework of this engineering, Kurds, Arabs, Armenians, Albanians, Georgians, Circassians, Laz people, Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, Nasturies, and Bulgarians were displaced.
Q: Was this systematic?
F. Dündar: Yes, both systematic and chronologically continuous. In 1913, the policy targeted Bulgarians. At that time, the territories that now belong to Greece belonged to Bulgarians. The Bulgarian army was powerful and that posed a threat to Istanbul. So 50,000 Bulgarians were displaced and sent to Bulgaria, and 50,000 Turks from Bulgaria came and settled in their place. Then came the turn of Greeks. [The CUP leader] Halil Mentese confessed this chronologic continuity. He said, "After Bulgarians now it's the Greeks' turn."
On October 22, 1914, the policy of expelling Greeks was halted because two days earlier a deal was made with Germany in which there was also financial aid. Therefore, for the sake of the state's stability, the attacks against Greeks were stopped. Greeks were displaced inland from the shores and the borders to be used as a tool to threaten [Greece] in the future.
Toward the end of 1914, we can see the displaced [Muslim] people in Zeitun. While Armenians were sent away, displaced Muslims were settled in their places. The purpose of this population exchange was to create a safe homeland. In 1915 Armenians were expelled from the region. Then, in 1916, the policy start targeting Kurds. New "replacement" commissions were gathered. During the same period Kurds fleed from Russia.
Q: Why?
F. Dündar: Because they were pro-Ottoman Kurds. Russians too wanted to expel and get rid of Kurds. But not by killing them. In 1917, in Palestine, Jews become the target [of the CUP]. All these steps were parts of the CUP's project. Thus, the systematic character is obvious.
Q: How many people were displaced?
F. Dündar: As you know, [the columnist] Murat Bardakçi has publicized parts of the "notebook of Talat Pasha" after keeping it to himself for 20 years. He does not even say the dates when the notebook was written. Had Bardakçi acknowledged this notebook 20 years ago, we would have progressed much further in our research. In my opinion the notebook was written by the end of 1915. Only according to Talat Pasha's notebook, 80 percent of 1.5 million Armenians were deported. Muslims who escaped from Russian army come to around 1.2 million people, of whom around a million are Kurds and 200,000, Turks. Turks were made to resettle in the regions in which Armenians had been living. Kurds were scattered in Turkish-populated areas. Tens of thousands of Assyrians, Nasturis, Circassians, and Arabs too. At that time the population of Anatolia was around 12 million. One-third of this population was displaced and resettled.
Q: What are your sources?
F. Dündar: Cipher telegrams. They are the operational documents - executive orders - of the CUP government. They are not decisions taken in various congresses. Cipher telegrams are operational documents.
Q: What is a cipher telegram?
F. Dündar: These are telegrams written in code by special telegraph officers and can be decoded only by those who have the key. Codes were changed about every three months.
We can read them because Talat Pasha wrote them in a regular way and they were coded by the telegraph officer. These documents are in the Ottoman archives. Anyone able to read Ottoman can go and read them. However, this does not mean that the cipher telegrams are archived fully. The archives are open, but this does not mean that one can find all of the telegrams there.
The fact that ethnic engineering was done through telegrams makes the whole story even more meaningful. Over the course of five years, the whole population structure changed in a certain geographic area. There is no other instance of this.
Q: How were the geographic borders defined?
F. Dündar: The CUP's target was Anatolia [defined in modern Turkish as all of Asia Minor]. According to me, the regions to which Armenians were sent were not within the borders of the future state project. Thus, Armenians were to be excluded from this project [the future state]. Kurds were within the project. For instance, Talat Pasha opposed the idea of resettling Kurds in Aleppo area. He wanted them to be resettled in regions that are within the borders to today's Turkey because the number of Muslims was limited. Thus, it is the optimum use of existing resources.
Q: You are using engineering language.
F. Dündar: The language of the documents is quite cold and distanced. The author of these telegrams, Talat Pasha, was a lawyer, a very smart person, who spoke foreign languages. He differentiated between the language of the cipher telegrams and the language used in diplomacy. He was a real "statesman-diplomat."
Q: You wrote in your book that the aim of the state was to "mix" and then to "unify and melt." If these do not work then to "cleanse." Who were the ones who were mixed and who were the ones who were "cleansed"?
F. Dündar: Kurds were mixed. Even if we disregard the politics of violence, including converts, seized and adopted children, 40 percent of Armenians survived. Only one-third of Armenians remained. "Cleansing" does not mean annihilating all. There were Armenians who remained but were disconnected from their land.
There was a rule of 5 percent for instance. In comparison with the Muslim population, Armenians were not to exceed 5 percent. Even this had some preconditions. For instance, if a family had a son over 15, he would be counted as a second family. Then you had some loyal Armenians, police, soldier, etc.
Q: Were Armenians taken to the army from deportation?
F. Dündar: Yes. In 1916 or 1917 in Der Zor, Armenians were taken to the army.
Q: What is the source of this information?
F. Dündar: Cipher telegrams.
Q: Did they obey the order?
F. Dündar: I do not know. But the order exists. Of course they were to be taken without any weapon handed to them, in what was called a "hard-labor battalion" (amele taburu).
Q: You are saying that the CUP conducted deportations and the resettlement project with great care. With which organizations on the ground did they conduct this?
F. Dündar: This is the state. The state has population records. It has a statistical agency as well. Each institution has its own statistical department. In 1915 there were maps based on the "millet system." Still, there were officers who were not working according to the CUP's mentality. They were dismissed.
Q:Was there any attempt to persuade the officers in order to create an intellectual or ideological organization in these telegrams?
F. Dündar: Telegrams convey orders. But for instance in one of Talat Pasha's telegrams, you can see a sentence written for persuading the recipient. He says, "By now all the Ottoman territories are a battleground." Of course, 100-percent fulfillment of orders is impossible. Local authorities may differ in the initiatives they take.
Q: You have said that population changes were tracked every three months. Are there records referring to this? Are we talking about such a well-organized structure?
F. Dündar: Yes. The number of births and the number of deaths were added. Population movements were followed and reported to the center every three months.
Q: You have said that the CUP succeeded in resolving many of the problems that could have created trouble for the future nation-state. Looking back, can you say the CUP resolved these problems?
F. Dündar: The CUP left a very "adequate" population composition to Mustafa Kemal.
Q: What do you mean by "adequate"? There is no homogenous society, right
F. Dündar: Well, at least we can say that compared to the time before the CUP, a more harmonious population composition was created. Probable Kurdish and Greek demands were halted. Of course, Armenians got the worst of it.
Q: You assume that Mustafa Kemal would have chosen to build a totally homogenous nation state. Do you not think there might have been other options?
F. Dündar: There is continuity in mentality. It is possible to trace back the mentality of assimilating Kurds in order to build a new state to the CUP period. [The Pan-Turkist ideologue] Ziya Gökalp not only proposed the assimilation of Kurds but also proposed projects to realize this. He prepared a survey questionnaire in 1914, with more than 60 questions. Criminal data were collected in this questionnaire. Whether there are ethnic divisions within the clans, or different divisions of language, weakness of the leaders, etc.
Q: Where was it published?
F. Dündar: It is a questionnaire sent to regional authorities by the CUP government, I mean regions in which Kurds were living. It is in the Ottoman archives. It is going to be published.
Q: In the "Armenian Conference" in Istanbul, at Bilgi University in 2005, you said, "deportation is not a holistic and premeditated project." Now you are saying "deportation is a conscious decision, the consequences of which could have been known in advance." These are two different sentences. Could you please explain?
F. Dündar: If I am not mistaken, I said, there was no policy to annihilate all Armenians. And I still defend this argument. But of course the partial decrease in the Armenian population was due to the CUP's population policies. Moreover, at that time I said I had not yet studied the Armenian case. After having studied Armenians, one can see that Der Zor was very well known to the state. There are statements of authorities in Der Zor. Further, in 1912, a report had been prepared for the government by experts. The report says, "No immigrant could be settled in that area." Sixty percent of the population in Der Zor consisted of nomadic groups. The state knew Der Zor very well. This proves that even a decision only to deport is a conscious decision. The results are not invisible. Thus, it can be said that the Armenian deportation was a crime against humanity.
Q: What are the living conditions in Der Zor?
F. Dündar: Der Zor is a desert. Even, once upon a time, it was called "Province of the desert" on the maps. Further, on July 6, 1914, there was a discussion in the parliament. A Greek member of parliament asked why the immigrants expelled from the Balkans were resettled in Greek villages. He said, "Almost all the country is empty. What is the reason for this resettlement?" Talat Pasha responded, "Yes, there are lots of empty places. Yet, had those Muslims resettled in desert areas, they would have all died."
So, the conditions were known. But only 10 months later, Armenians were sent there.
Note: Above are excerpts from the article. The full article appears here. Clarifications and comments by me are contained in {}. Deletions are marked by [...]. The bold emphasis is mine.
Armenian Genocide Forum
by Talin Suciyan
ISTANBUL - Speaking in Istanbul in March, historian Fuat Dündar argued that the Armenian "deportations" of 1915 were part of a "systematic ethnic engineering" project undertaken by the Ottoman government, which was controlled by the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) at the time.
Mr. Dündar, who received his Ph.D. from the prestigious École des Hautes Études en Sciences Sociales (EHESS) in Paris, has studied the cipher telegrams written by members of the CUP government and tracked the ethnic and demographic changes in Anatolia between 1913 and 1918. For his master's degree, he had focused mainly on the displacement of Muslim populations, publishing a book titled Ittihat ve Terakki'nin Müslümanlari Iskan Politikasi (The CUP's settlement policy for Muslims). He is also the author of Türkiye Nüfus Sayimlarinda Azinliklar (Minorities in Turkey's censuses).
At the "Armenian conference" held in 2005 at Istanbul's Bilgi University, Mr. Dündar presented some of his findings. "Deportation is not a holistic and premeditated project," he concluded at the time. But now, speaking before a group of about 60 activists, academics, and journalist at Tarih ve Toplum Bilimleri Enstitusu (History and Social Sciences Institute), Mr. Dündar declares, "deportation is a conscious decision, the consequences of which could have been known in advance."
What follows is a conversation between this correspondent and Fuat Dündar, which also appeared in Turkish in Agos.
Q: You wrote your Ph.D. thesis on settlement policies during the CUP period between 1913 and 1918. Are you talking about a systematic settling policy covering all those who were not ethnic Turks?
F. Dündar: Actually Turks were also resettled in order to obtain a predominance or majority of Turkish identity. We can say that ethnic engineering was conducted. The Turks' duty was to turkify. In the framework of this engineering, Kurds, Arabs, Armenians, Albanians, Georgians, Circassians, Laz people, Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, Nasturies, and Bulgarians were displaced.
Q: Was this systematic?
F. Dündar: Yes, both systematic and chronologically continuous. In 1913, the policy targeted Bulgarians. At that time, the territories that now belong to Greece belonged to Bulgarians. The Bulgarian army was powerful and that posed a threat to Istanbul. So 50,000 Bulgarians were displaced and sent to Bulgaria, and 50,000 Turks from Bulgaria came and settled in their place. Then came the turn of Greeks. [The CUP leader] Halil Mentese confessed this chronologic continuity. He said, "After Bulgarians now it's the Greeks' turn."
On October 22, 1914, the policy of expelling Greeks was halted because two days earlier a deal was made with Germany in which there was also financial aid. Therefore, for the sake of the state's stability, the attacks against Greeks were stopped. Greeks were displaced inland from the shores and the borders to be used as a tool to threaten [Greece] in the future.
Toward the end of 1914, we can see the displaced [Muslim] people in Zeitun. While Armenians were sent away, displaced Muslims were settled in their places. The purpose of this population exchange was to create a safe homeland. In 1915 Armenians were expelled from the region. Then, in 1916, the policy start targeting Kurds. New "replacement" commissions were gathered. During the same period Kurds fleed from Russia.
Q: Why?
F. Dündar: Because they were pro-Ottoman Kurds. Russians too wanted to expel and get rid of Kurds. But not by killing them. In 1917, in Palestine, Jews become the target [of the CUP]. All these steps were parts of the CUP's project. Thus, the systematic character is obvious.
Q: How many people were displaced?
F. Dündar: As you know, [the columnist] Murat Bardakçi has publicized parts of the "notebook of Talat Pasha" after keeping it to himself for 20 years. He does not even say the dates when the notebook was written. Had Bardakçi acknowledged this notebook 20 years ago, we would have progressed much further in our research. In my opinion the notebook was written by the end of 1915. Only according to Talat Pasha's notebook, 80 percent of 1.5 million Armenians were deported. Muslims who escaped from Russian army come to around 1.2 million people, of whom around a million are Kurds and 200,000, Turks. Turks were made to resettle in the regions in which Armenians had been living. Kurds were scattered in Turkish-populated areas. Tens of thousands of Assyrians, Nasturis, Circassians, and Arabs too. At that time the population of Anatolia was around 12 million. One-third of this population was displaced and resettled.
Q: What are your sources?
F. Dündar: Cipher telegrams. They are the operational documents - executive orders - of the CUP government. They are not decisions taken in various congresses. Cipher telegrams are operational documents.
Q: What is a cipher telegram?
F. Dündar: These are telegrams written in code by special telegraph officers and can be decoded only by those who have the key. Codes were changed about every three months.
We can read them because Talat Pasha wrote them in a regular way and they were coded by the telegraph officer. These documents are in the Ottoman archives. Anyone able to read Ottoman can go and read them. However, this does not mean that the cipher telegrams are archived fully. The archives are open, but this does not mean that one can find all of the telegrams there.
The fact that ethnic engineering was done through telegrams makes the whole story even more meaningful. Over the course of five years, the whole population structure changed in a certain geographic area. There is no other instance of this.
Q: How were the geographic borders defined?
F. Dündar: The CUP's target was Anatolia [defined in modern Turkish as all of Asia Minor]. According to me, the regions to which Armenians were sent were not within the borders of the future state project. Thus, Armenians were to be excluded from this project [the future state]. Kurds were within the project. For instance, Talat Pasha opposed the idea of resettling Kurds in Aleppo area. He wanted them to be resettled in regions that are within the borders to today's Turkey because the number of Muslims was limited. Thus, it is the optimum use of existing resources.
Q: You are using engineering language.
F. Dündar: The language of the documents is quite cold and distanced. The author of these telegrams, Talat Pasha, was a lawyer, a very smart person, who spoke foreign languages. He differentiated between the language of the cipher telegrams and the language used in diplomacy. He was a real "statesman-diplomat."
Q: You wrote in your book that the aim of the state was to "mix" and then to "unify and melt." If these do not work then to "cleanse." Who were the ones who were mixed and who were the ones who were "cleansed"?
F. Dündar: Kurds were mixed. Even if we disregard the politics of violence, including converts, seized and adopted children, 40 percent of Armenians survived. Only one-third of Armenians remained. "Cleansing" does not mean annihilating all. There were Armenians who remained but were disconnected from their land.
There was a rule of 5 percent for instance. In comparison with the Muslim population, Armenians were not to exceed 5 percent. Even this had some preconditions. For instance, if a family had a son over 15, he would be counted as a second family. Then you had some loyal Armenians, police, soldier, etc.
Q: Were Armenians taken to the army from deportation?
F. Dündar: Yes. In 1916 or 1917 in Der Zor, Armenians were taken to the army.
Q: What is the source of this information?
F. Dündar: Cipher telegrams.
Q: Did they obey the order?
F. Dündar: I do not know. But the order exists. Of course they were to be taken without any weapon handed to them, in what was called a "hard-labor battalion" (amele taburu).
Q: You are saying that the CUP conducted deportations and the resettlement project with great care. With which organizations on the ground did they conduct this?
F. Dündar: This is the state. The state has population records. It has a statistical agency as well. Each institution has its own statistical department. In 1915 there were maps based on the "millet system." Still, there were officers who were not working according to the CUP's mentality. They were dismissed.
Q:Was there any attempt to persuade the officers in order to create an intellectual or ideological organization in these telegrams?
F. Dündar: Telegrams convey orders. But for instance in one of Talat Pasha's telegrams, you can see a sentence written for persuading the recipient. He says, "By now all the Ottoman territories are a battleground." Of course, 100-percent fulfillment of orders is impossible. Local authorities may differ in the initiatives they take.
Q: You have said that population changes were tracked every three months. Are there records referring to this? Are we talking about such a well-organized structure?
F. Dündar: Yes. The number of births and the number of deaths were added. Population movements were followed and reported to the center every three months.
Q: You have said that the CUP succeeded in resolving many of the problems that could have created trouble for the future nation-state. Looking back, can you say the CUP resolved these problems?
F. Dündar: The CUP left a very "adequate" population composition to Mustafa Kemal.
Q: What do you mean by "adequate"? There is no homogenous society, right
F. Dündar: Well, at least we can say that compared to the time before the CUP, a more harmonious population composition was created. Probable Kurdish and Greek demands were halted. Of course, Armenians got the worst of it.
Q: You assume that Mustafa Kemal would have chosen to build a totally homogenous nation state. Do you not think there might have been other options?
F. Dündar: There is continuity in mentality. It is possible to trace back the mentality of assimilating Kurds in order to build a new state to the CUP period. [The Pan-Turkist ideologue] Ziya Gökalp not only proposed the assimilation of Kurds but also proposed projects to realize this. He prepared a survey questionnaire in 1914, with more than 60 questions. Criminal data were collected in this questionnaire. Whether there are ethnic divisions within the clans, or different divisions of language, weakness of the leaders, etc.
Q: Where was it published?
F. Dündar: It is a questionnaire sent to regional authorities by the CUP government, I mean regions in which Kurds were living. It is in the Ottoman archives. It is going to be published.
Q: In the "Armenian Conference" in Istanbul, at Bilgi University in 2005, you said, "deportation is not a holistic and premeditated project." Now you are saying "deportation is a conscious decision, the consequences of which could have been known in advance." These are two different sentences. Could you please explain?
F. Dündar: If I am not mistaken, I said, there was no policy to annihilate all Armenians. And I still defend this argument. But of course the partial decrease in the Armenian population was due to the CUP's population policies. Moreover, at that time I said I had not yet studied the Armenian case. After having studied Armenians, one can see that Der Zor was very well known to the state. There are statements of authorities in Der Zor. Further, in 1912, a report had been prepared for the government by experts. The report says, "No immigrant could be settled in that area." Sixty percent of the population in Der Zor consisted of nomadic groups. The state knew Der Zor very well. This proves that even a decision only to deport is a conscious decision. The results are not invisible. Thus, it can be said that the Armenian deportation was a crime against humanity.
Q: What are the living conditions in Der Zor?
F. Dündar: Der Zor is a desert. Even, once upon a time, it was called "Province of the desert" on the maps. Further, on July 6, 1914, there was a discussion in the parliament. A Greek member of parliament asked why the immigrants expelled from the Balkans were resettled in Greek villages. He said, "Almost all the country is empty. What is the reason for this resettlement?" Talat Pasha responded, "Yes, there are lots of empty places. Yet, had those Muslims resettled in desert areas, they would have all died."
So, the conditions were known. But only 10 months later, Armenians were sent there.
Note: Above are excerpts from the article. The full article appears here. Clarifications and comments by me are contained in {}. Deletions are marked by [...]. The bold emphasis is mine.
Labels: Armenian Genocide
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